Maybe it's really a "communication" problem?!

[BigRonW]

Before any Francophone readers get upset, let me first point out that I not only LOVE France, but plan to retire there. It's the differences between france and England that I love... and which make me doubt that Europe will achieve any kind of common political establishment to rival our economic alliance. Europeans just don't agree about too many things. We don't even agree about what "The Law" is. The English (and the Germans) pass laws in the expectation of enforcing them. To the French, passing a law is kind of like "declaring solidarity with a concept": making it official that you approve of the idea. Political corruption is vastly more acceptable to the French than to the English - you can do things openly in Paris that would get you locked up in London. We don't agree about what's important. What's that got to do with "MP4 players?" Surprisingly... rather a lot. If you think Europeans are a diverse bunch (and I've lived long enough in both France and Germany to have a familiarity with their cultures) Europeans and Asians are even more different from each other. If their behaviour looks strange to us... ours doubtless look at least as strange to them. In Japan for example, giving a direct refusal is unspeakably rude. Kind of like the way we in England wouldn't tell a shop keeper that we thought their goods were ridiculously overpriced and we were therefore going to buy from their cheaper rivals down the road... but would leave with the feeble comment that "we would think about it") I have the impression that in Chinese culture making statements about your product that aren't necessarily factual isn't merely "no big deal", but it's expected. We work ourselves into a froth over the {expletive deleted} dishonesty of the HK vendors... because we demand that they conform to OUR standards. Insist that they should be punished for NOT doing so.

Let's wind back a little. Maybe they're as ignorant of OUR ways as we are of theirs? I find it perplexing that CoolStuff are now selling players that the auction headline claims are "4 Gig!" but the body text admits are really 2 gig. And they sell at prices hardly higher than UExcell ask for a 2 gig player that looks pretty much the same. having a "Good Reputation" is BIG here in the West - it generates trust and increases business. We don't expect to be tricked, and we don't LIKE being tricked. We seem to be dealing with people from a culture where the opposite is true. Where trickery is standard procedure - and thus no big deal, because it IS expected. If that's the case, then what we REALLY need is some form of dialogue that explains to vendors that they'd sell more in OUR market if they behaved in ways that we find acceptable, rather than what's OK in China.

[michiganjfrog]

Originally Posted by BigRonW";p=&quot

Before any Francophone readers get upset, let me first point out that I not only LOVE France, but plan to retire there. It's the differences between france and England that I love... and which make me doubt that Europe will achieve any kind of common political establishment to rival our economic alliance. Europeans just don't agree about too many things. We don't even agree about what "The Law" is. The English (and the Germans) pass laws in the expectation of enforcing them. To the French, passing a law is kind of like "declaring solidarity with a concept": making it official that you approve of the idea. Political corruption is vastly more acceptable to the French than to the English - you can do things openly in Paris that would get you locked up in London. We don't agree about what's important. What's that got to do with "MP4 players?" Surprisingly... rather a lot. If you think Europeans are a diverse bunch (and I've lived long enough in both France and Germany to have a familiarity with their cultures) Europeans and Asians are even more different from each other. If their behaviour looks strange to us... ours doubtless look at least as strange to them. In Japan for example, giving a direct refusal is unspeakably rude. Kind of like the way we in England wouldn't tell a shop keeper that we thought their goods were ridiculously overpriced and we were therefore going to buy from their cheaper rivals down the road... but would leave with the feeble comment that "we would think about it") I have the impression that in Chinese culture making statements about your product that aren't necessarily factual isn't merely "no big deal", but it's expected. We work ourselves into a froth over the {expletive deleted} dishonesty of the HK vendors... because we demand that they conform to OUR standards. Insist that they should be punished for NOT doing so.

Let's wind back a little. Maybe they're as ignorant of OUR ways as we are of theirs? I find it perplexing that CoolStuff are now selling players that the auction headline claims are "4 Gig!" but the body text admits are really 2 gig. And they sell at prices hardly higher than UExcell ask for a 2 gig player that looks pretty much the same. having a "Good Reputation" is BIG here in the West - it generates trust and increases business. We don't expect to be tricked, and we don't LIKE being tricked. We seem to be dealing with people from a culture where the opposite is true. Where trickery is standard procedure - and thus no big deal, because it IS expected. If that's the case, then what we REALLY need is some form of dialogue that explains to vendors that they'd sell more in OUR market if they behaved in ways that we find acceptable, rather than what's OK in China.

We know the CHinese obviously don't have a moral issue with producing millions of counterfeit goods but they know damn well it isn't right. They know very well it isn't acceptable on eBay and other int'l venues. They know its dishonest. The Chinese seller for my headphones signs his letters "Honest Xiao" and he knows damn well he's selling fakes. He knows it isnt acceptable, he gets negatives saying that. He tries to placate the buyer because he doesnt like negatives, as he knows negatives will hurt his business. They could "play fair" in the world marketplace, even in their own, if they wanted to. They just don't care, if theres more profit to be had by lying and scamming. That's how liars and scammers behave. They are found the world over. The Chinese however, are very good at the counterfeiting aspect of lying and scamming people. (Good time for a plug for my latest review on a pair of Fake China-special Sennheiser PX100's.... Which "officially" are only made in Germany.... but the Chinese found a way to move Germany over to mainland China. They're brilliant, I tell you!)

[BigRonW]

We each have our own cultural traditions and "rules". Here in the west - and I imagine in Canada, it's acceptable, (if not perhaps approved of,) to hide stuff in microscopically small print - if the buyer can't be bothered to read the details.. then that's HIS problem. Big Supermarket chains have worked out that the range of goods that you know the price of is quite small. So, they reduce the price of that small range of goods to at (or even below!) the cost of production - giving you a kind of "subliminal" belief that if their baked beans, bread and milk are this cheap... then it's a shop with LOW PRICES. You assume that ALL their prices are low... Isn't that (since it's a carefully calculated attempt to mislead you) just as much "scamming" customers? yet it's been brought to a fine art by the largest retail chain in the USA... and nobody seems to object very loudly: it's just "how things are"

Knowing that something "isn't right" isn't the same as knowing that something's important. I think you may have to two confused. "Don't spit into the wind" is kind of universal. But - for example - "don't call someone "uncultured" unless you want a fist in the face" probably applies only in Russia.

It takes either a lot of travel - or a vivid imagination - to understand that other people really ARE different. It's kind of hard (like near-impossible) to convince most Westerners that most Arab women aren't forced to wear a Chador, Burkah or whatever, any more than your wife is "forced" by local laws not to walk the streets naked.

If you think that the Chinese involved in this scam are really just "wannabe Americans" with slanty-eyes and funny accents... then i suggest you take another look at the "instruction" leaflet that accompanied your player. That leaflet was produced by the BEST English speaker the manufacturer had access to. Do you think they'd EVER been outside of China? if not... then HOW exactly are they supposed to know what YOU consider to be "fair" or unfair"?

[michiganjfrog]

Originally Posted by BigRonW";p=&quot

If you think that the Chinese involved in this scam are really just "wannabe Americans" with slanty-eyes and funny accents... then i suggest you take another look at the "instruction" leaflet that accompanied your player. That leaflet was produced by the BEST English speaker the manufacturer had access to. Do you think they'd EVER been outside of China? if not... then HOW exactly are they supposed to know what YOU consider to be "fair" or unfair"?

Yes, the Chinese merchants are outside of China all the time. Via their computers. Online sellers, especially eBay merchants, are having to deal with customers all over the world. They know very well what the standards are. You can see that in the examples that I gave in my message, such as my Chinese seller making efforts to negotiate with buyers who were burned by his fake products, in order to eliminate the negatives. If they didn't think it was important to be dishonest or that customers didn't congratulate them on being scammed with fake products, they wouldn't try to eliminate the negatives.

I think you're playing up the "Chinaman Joe" image a little too much. While I don't know where they are getting these rubes to translate their manuals, the Chinese dealers I have seen or dealt with on eBay or online speak and understand English better than the manual translators. Here's a typical example of that, my Chinese seller telling me to shut up already and wait (after I sent him 65 emails over a period of weeks, demanding he respond with an answer as to when he was planning on shipping my fake Sennheisers):

hi friend:
you won item already send to you ,please waitting it,
cheers
honest xiao

Me thinking maybe the problem is he didn't understand my English in the 65 emails but NO, he managed to convince me pretty well that he DOES understand English well enough to trade with the foreign devils. He also understands that he's NOT supposed to be selling fake Senn's in the first place. He knows negs are bad for a seller. So after getting neg's about his fake headphones did he stop? No. He continued to sell all kinds of different fakes.

I think you're being way too "PC" with the Chinese in playing down their role in scamming millions of people worldwide with their fake shit. In citing that it may be perfectly acceptable with them to scam people, and that even if they recognize some "wrong" in it, no one cares. Agreed there are vast differences in cultures, including theirs vs. the Western world. That's the crux of my point. In their culture, they don't value honesty in trade very much, and I suppose the government is corrupt enough to let so much of it pass. But some laws are universal, and I'm afraid thievery is one of them.

Do you really think that Chinese sellers have no concept that they may be defrauding people? Do you really think that Chinese customers are mad happy to be defrauded by their fellow countrymen? That if they pay for a 4GB player and get a 256MB player (and the prices of players there are apparently not as cheap as we may think) that they have no problem with that? Or if they buy an Apple iPod and it turns out to be a PhonyPod, its like one's just as good as another, with them? Then read this, about just one counterfeiter jailed in China for selling counterfeit goods:

http://www.chinacsr.com/2006/03/07/3...iled-in-china/

As to your example of the grocers, we may call that "benign scamming" at best. It is not really "scamming" in the traditional sense (to make some information less accessible), and certainly -not- comparable in the least with the counterfeit goods the CHinese are scamming people with. Which is actually against the law. Yes, even in China, as I cited in my source. The reason people may not be clamoring about the grocer "scam" as you call it, is perhaps because they are not aware of that practice. Its certainly the first time I hear of it. Also, it may not be widely practiced. In all the grocers I know of, I haven't seen that happening. The prices are on the shelves of most all the products, and on most of the products themselves.

[xenocarcinus]

yes, the OP is exactly right.

The problem is not the chinese understangin english but we not understanding the chinese people. They understand very well, so well infact that they make products that look exactly like ours, that work well (if used properly) and at a fraction of the cost.
They know us so well that they use tools of trade and retail invented by us better than we can use.
They know our psychology so well that even before they make even one buisness transaction, they already have a bunch of positive feedbacks on ebay.
They know our laws and buisness model so well that they know that ebay will be on their side when the matter is disputed.
They also know that when we finally wake up and think of doing something about it, they will be conning us with a different username or with a different product alltogether.

And all this comes to them naturally. I am raised and bought up in India and street sellers in there also use the same stratergy. It all comes to the people from third world countries naturally, and do you know why? Because there is immense compition in everything we do in our country so we r trained to do the best or die. Its survival instincts, some people do it in a lawful way (and steal "your jobs") and some people do it in a partially illigal way (robbing "you" of your money on ebay)

Hence, you see immigrants from third world countries when they come as students, they usually do better, when they go into buisness they do better, in jobs they do better, so naturally when they decide to fool you, they do good job at that too !!!

And the funny thig is, they learnt all of it from you, so while supermarkets use "small prints" to "boost sells" these people use it for survival, who do you think will win?

I am one of the person who was fooled by such person in ebay, but I returned the favor by telling paypal I did not receive the player at all (instead of hacked memory)
Now, I knwo that paypal cannot verify anything, cause the package was sent as "gift" so even if they send police to my home (which will not happen) I will tell them this was a gift 1GB player and that I never got 4GB player that I was supposed to get, also the package does not say it was sent as a result of ebay transaction !!! So I got my money back.

We have to understand here that these people are thieves and we must treat them as that and not as buisness counterpart, do that and you shall do fine. The times are changing, the world is smaller !!!

[BigRonW]

OK, let's consider another example - one that's probably unfamiliar to our North American (NAFTA) readers, and kind of highlights the (fairly comprehensive) difference between the EU and NAFTA. the various different nations that made up the EU were faced with a fundamental problem when attempting to open their borders to each others' goods. By doing so, they'd lose control of what could and what could not be sold in their own country. German law for example has insisted that sausages MUST contain 100% meat since back in medieval times... now they'd have to allow German manufacturers to compete with -say- british sausage makers who are allowed to add all kinds of junk to the mixture. Europe opted for "harmonization" - a process that reflected different national preferences and differences. At the heart of that process is CLEAR LABELLING, and regulations that ensure consumers KNOW what they're buying. Sounds simple? It's not. BIG row over whether British sausages and German "Wurst" could cointinue to be called the same thing (since, quite clearly, they're NOT the same thing) Or how about Icecream and chocolate? Tends to taste much the same (and the brands are the same) wherever in the EU that you buy it... but "British" Icecream and Chocolate are made from significantly different to their European rivals. If you go into a shop in Belgium and are offered what purports to be "Chocolate"made in the UK, are you being swindled if (even if it tastes the same) it's actually made from very different ingredients to the kind you normally buy? The European consensus is that the consumer must always get the benefit of the doubt. Compare that with NAFTA. Where the deal seems to be that any member country can export their goods to any other member, regardless of whether they conform to the minimum standards required of local manufacturers. Which (as things have turned out) is an arrangement that inherently favours producers over consumers. The selling of sausages and meat products, or jam may not seem relevant to a discussion of ChiPods... but What's the diference between someone selling a 3 gigabyte Chipod as 4 gigabytes... and someone selling Jam that contains 40% fruit when the locally-produced product had to contain 80%? (for US readers, "jam" is English-English for what you call "jelly"- which is the name by which we call JellO.

[joie]

These Chinese vendors are giving a bad name to the Chinese people as a whole. I understand your experiences, but do not judge all Chinese people off of the way these people are.

Please stop being racist and prejudice.

You guys should know that there are hundreds of millions of scammers from ALL countries and nationalities. There are MILLIONS in the US alone.

Think of it this way: The scammers in the US understand our customs and laws, but they equally lie and false advertise and etc etc.

There are white and black and hispanic and european counterfeiters everywhere.

You don't know anything about chinese culture or morals, so don't assume from what these LOSERS are doing.

------------

Okay, now that I got that out, I can answer the post. They don't have any laws in China right now, at least I don't think so, against it. Apparently, a lot of the people aren't raised to see intellectual property (stuff like logos and names and patents) as important. It probably happens to them all the time. Even since the beginning of history, people have been picking on and bullying the chinese (learn your history), so they are used to the abuse and probably figure they should get revenge. LOL it sounds farfetched, but possible.. haven't you ever wanted to beat up a bully?

Anyways, I lost my train of thought. BTW, this is just an assumption, I do not actually believe this.. I'm just brainstorming.

Sorry, it's just that people who are prejudice really bother me.. and all I've been reading throughout all these forums is people talking bad about the Chinese people as a whole.. only because there are a bunch of stupid ebay sellers from there. It's wrong, just wrong.

[lattesurf]

I'm a 100% true-blood Chinese, though not from China.

And I believe that in all the different herds, there are always the few black ones. There are Chinese scammers/cheats, yes i agree to that. But there are also American/English/African/etc cheats, the list goes on.

The Chinese manufacturers/sellers maybe cashing in on the MP3 players market by hacking players and stuff. But on the other hand, there are also American/English/African/etc cheats cashing in on other things. I'm not sure what those things they are cashing in on, but I'm very sure there is.

As what joie pointed out, China does not have very strict (if not any) Intellectual Property (IP) laws. Whats more, they are currently a developing country, so every cent means alot to them. Their government is opening up their market to the world, so they are relatively quite slack in the IP laws part. So many counterfeit goods make it to foreign shores. If counterfeiting brings in substantial amounts of money into the country, why would the government stop it? They get the foreign money in, whilst building their economy, killing two birds with one stone.

As xenocarcinus said, it is not a matter of the Chinese understanding the English, but more to the English understanding the Chinese. (English used in this context means all the non-Chinese). You need to understand why the Chinese manufacturers are doing these hacking things. In a developing country, only money has the loudest voice, so they will try to earn as much as they can. To increase their profit margin, they hack the players so as to increase their selling price.

So to sum, in the hacked MP3 players market, yes the Chinese are responsible for the majority of it. But the world does not live on MP3 players alone, and there are many other non-Chinese scammers/cheats.

[BigRonW]

I for one am 100% true-blood Chinese..."

Now we're in danger of unintentionally slipping towards racism. I for one have never suggested - and don't believe - that "nature" and "nurture" are intertwined to the extent that your genetic heritage determines your culture. "Blood" - i.e. genetics have NOTHING to do with it. Culture however has EVERYTHING to do with it. When, a couple of years back, the EU Commission was forced to sack ALL of its commissioners (but promptly re-hired a few of them)... who it was that stayed fired, and who got re-hired was largely down to the culture they came from. In an implicit argument about whose "cultural values" are the most "valid", Northern Europe won.. and the Mediterraneans lost. In some cultures, it's OK to hire your friends and family at infflated wages regardless of their qualifications for the job (like Edith Cresson giving a six-figure salary to her Hairdresser!) whereas in others... it's not. Some cultures expect receipts to prove you've spent as much as you claim you did... others don't. Grim, humourless Protestant Anglo-German values won the day. The point is.. the French, Italians, Greeks etc., weren't doing anything wrong... at least, not regarded as wrong by the cultures in which they lived. In many culture, functionaries salaries are small - in recognition of the assumption that their pay is going to be subsidized by bribery.

It's a problem that has unexpected spin-off effects. British Aerospace signed a deal with the Saudis to supply the new "Eurofighter"... the EU now has new "no bribes" laws, whereas to the Saudis, bribes are a standard everyday part of doing business. BA was being investigated for (allegedly) paying bribes.. until pressure from the Saudis brought the enquiry to an early close.

The point I made originally was that "normal business practice" varies from culture to culture, and when members of one culture trade with another, then those differences are going to show up and cause friction. I carefully made no claim that any particular culture was "better" In fact I find the Germanic reflexive obedience to authority somewhat distasteful. It's not that they're "more honest"... just "less imaginative"!

Research concerning something only slightly overlapping suggests that conditions in the sweatshops of Mainland China vary largely as a result of who owns and controls the factory. Those owned or controlled from Hong Kong tend to treat their workers significantly worse than foreign owned, or even "regular Chinese" owned... but about the same as factories owned by Taiwanese. Conclusion... there's more than ONE "China", and more than one set of "Chinese values".